Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:25 am Post subject: Post for Wednesday, March 3rd
yo sup foolz?!
This was a pretty cool reading. I like the fact that this more recent history seems more definite, as opposed to the earlier chapters where there was a lot of differing opinions and questionable facts. The actual subject matter of this reading, however, was pretty sad and depressing. It was really just a continuation of my frustrations in class.. One thing that pissed me off was how picky the settlers seemed to be. Page said something about how the land that the Navajos were spreading into wasn't particularly attractive to white settlers at the time. It makes me angry that they have the nerve to be choosy and demanding about what land they wanted. Assholes. Also! For once I got pissed off at the Native Americans.. It's frustrating to me that some of them are fighting between tribes (Hopis vs. Navajos, etc). It seems completely pointless to try to fight another Native American tribe, especially at this time. They should all be working together.
The whole thing about the boarding schools is such bullshit, too. Ugghkwjlkfj. It makes me angry reading about it. I don't understand what's right about that. It's completely absurd that they would tell kids that being an Indian isn't something to be proud of. That just infuriates me. I don't get WHY they hate on the Native Americans so much. I know that might sound so stupid and basic, but like... WHAT?! WHY!? I actually want to punch that guy Pratt in the FACE. Who the hell actually believes that "the solution to the 'Indian problem' was to 'kill the Indian and save the man.'" That's just fucked up. Not only are they implying that Indians aren't men, that's just RIDICULOUS. lksjdglksjdlgkjsldgj. I'm sorry, I'm done.
One thing I'm wondering is how and why the Navajos have the largest reservation to this day. What did they do differently to keep their tribe alive? That's something I'd be interested in researching.
The issue of sovereignty is very confusing and it comes up again in this reading. In the book it seems like they keep on making new laws about it and then completely ignoring them. On page 307 it says “provided, that hereafter no Indian nation or tribe within the territory of the United States shall be acknowledged or recognized as an independent nation, tribe or power with whom the United States may contract by treaty.” I thought most reservations know were regarded as sovereign, meaning they can make their own laws and are exempt from taxes. But I also thought it meant they could still make treaties and agreements like they are an independent country which is opposite of the quote above. Could someone clarify please? I also thought it was very interesting that he brought the idea that most people thought citizenship was the best thing for the Native Americans. Both people who hated them and people who liked them thought they were doing good for the Native Americans by making them become Christians and citizens. It is amazing how when people think they are doing good for a group of people yet they can still be very misguided. “For these people of goodwill and high principle, the point of all Indian policy, all humanitarian efforts, was assimilation.” (309) It makes me wonder what other people and I think we our doing that is good intentioned but actually is hurting someone or a group of people. I hope that is not happening but I am almost certain it is somewhere in the world.
How do you think we can stop these good intentions from turning against what a group wants for themselves? Can we stop doing this or do we ourselves have too strong of convictions? Maybe talking to the group before implementing rules would help?
I would like to piggyback off of Gigi. Although the reading says that these people "simply wanted what it seemed at the time, which was that Indians would melt into the general population." [pg 309] In order for this to happen, they needed to break Native American culture, and is that not, in a way, hurting them? I think those they were just a guided as they needed to be. And there's no point in talking to a group before implementing rules- that's just weird & hypocritical. By implementing rules for someone else, you're already showing that you don't care about what they think.
[New thought]
On page 311, Page writes "Elders were saddened when students would return to the reservation, unable to speak their Native language or pretending to be unable." At the top, it says "upon graduation they were encouraged to find work away from the reservations." Well, these schools weren't really giving them a choice. If they can't speak the language, then they can't really get a job there, can they? (rhetorical question) This really stuck out to me because it's a very... sneaky? method of conversion. Totally wash away their culture, and then they will have no choice BUT to assimiliate to US culture. I mean, this was the whole point of the boarding schools, but that specific example showed a different type of conversion that I don't think we've seen yet. It's giving them no other option, but this time the consequence isn't direct death. It's something more powerful- it's making them [students who can't speak the language] outsiders to their own culture, and telling them they should go somewhere with people more like them. Creepy. I'm not even sure that analysis even scratched the surface.
Time for a question (sort of). I would like to hear people's thoughts are on Wovoka and Wodziwub and their parallels to Tecumseh and the Prophet. Did this surprise anyone?
hey this reading wasnt so bad, or most of it anyway
i was shocked that page was willing to refer to the Navajo reservation as "not to shabby." it seems like no matter what, being forced off your land and into the desert kinda sucks. i guess this reading answered the question though about whether the Cherokees would have been better off leaving on their own accord, it seems that because the Navajos relocated without being told to they got away with the biggest chunk of land that any tribe got. its kind of shocking actually that they got such a big piece, even though the land sucked i feel like the government would try to reclaim it somehow.
the part about the schools was depressing. it reminded me of something i had heard at one point about how the public school system in America was originally created for the purposes of education, it was created to keep kids off the streets and to socially discipline them. this seems like the same sort of idea, making sure everybody gets some of the same influences no matter who they are so that in the end everybody is somewhat the same. sad.
i was under the impression that at the time of this religious stifling, legislature to restrict a groups religious practices were unconstitutional. i also didn't know that such drugs were outlawed so early on, i kinda wish page had gone deeper into that cause he sorta just described all of these hallucinogens used in ceremonies then said that they were outlawed without the reasoning.
i want to know if people think it would have been more empowering for the Indians to be regarded as sovereign nations or to be immediately American citizens free to practice their own laws like states?
I found this reading to be pretty interesting. I agree with Gina that reading about the boarding was infuriating although seemed rather tame after reading about the trail of tears. This is a general thought about the class but I wonder how they taught this stuff to me in elementary school. If page speaks at least mildly the truth then they sugar coated or skipped the shit out of this part of history. I think page 319 gives some good reasons why the Navajos were successful. I loved the way they dissented moving around on the land and not sending their children to school was such an awesome fuck you to the colonial government. The schools were obviously an important part of destroying Native culture. Teachers have so much power of influence. I'll believe anything that a teacher tells me especially when i was young. I can see how it was instilled in the students to be ashamed of their culture.
I don't know whether this is just Jake Page but this reading makes Native culture sound so awesome in previous chapters he talked about how more white people were apt to slip into Native culture than vice versa. In this chapter page 323 he talks about how the youth was becoming bored and feeling that life was pointless and slipping into alcoholism. I thought this was just a part of being a teenager were Native teens not as pessimistic? How do you give a person a sense of purpose (other than religion which Europeans had plenty of) Is it necessarily bad to feel this way?
Page spent a lot of time talking about Peyote and other Hallucinogens. It seems that drugs were seen differently by the Naives than the Europeans. They saw it as a good thing that was spiritual. Perhaps it was just the drugs that they had that were not as damaging. what do you think about the way that the two cultures saw mind altering substances? which do you think is a better way to look at them.
"How do you think we can stop these good intentions from turning against what a group wants for themselves? Can we stop doing this or do we ourselves have too strong of convictions? Maybe talking to the group before implementing rules would help?"
I like your question a lot Gigi although i'm afraid i cannot answer it but i do think that one of the root causes of it is people not realizing that they are wrong simply because they are themselves and that they are therefore inherently biased.
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:23 am Post subject: dirty lukes. big rock stoppper
MY favorite part about the reading by far was the section about the plants the Native Americans used. The cactus they would hallucinate with was very interesting and the (plant I can’t remember what type) that they would put in the river to kill fish with. Very clever we don’t even do that to this day. It says something about the connection the Native Americans had with the plants and land around them. And how it would be very challenging to move. So now I can connect the cool stuff with the rest of the class. From a purely survival rate point of view the native Americans seeing that they were not really given any shelter or food probably when they were forced to move to the west and when there were all those internment camps and shit. The native americans probably knew a lot about the planst and animals in their area and the places to hunt and kill them. (the buffalo running away spot and hunting spot we read about). It also seems like if the native Americans had certain cultural aspects like hallucinating or something like that then they would not be able to do them when they came to a new place where htat plant didn’t grow.
One of my fav arts of the reading was when jake page speculated why they wanted native Americans in certain areas and not running free. My question is why did the Europeans fear a mixed race. Many of them had this blood idea and that thye wanted to sperate and record peoples lineage. Why is that?
Howdy
So to answer Max's question i believe that being American citizens first would have given them more power in America. Being full citizens would give them the rights and protections that are designated by the constitution. But if he meant what would have been more empowering as a people, I’m not sure.
This question nicely leads to my question so I’ll stick it in the middle. The impression I got from the reading was that the Natives wanted citizenship and sovereignty at the same time. Do you think that it is fair for them to ask for both? Or should they have to choose?
I too was very interested in the people in Mexico and Texas that were totally wacked out on hallucinogens. I feel like this was a part of Native American history that a lot of the class was interested in at the beginning of the mod. I thought that some of their rituals were fascinating, the Ghost Dance in particular. I thought it was interesting how Page makes sure that it is understood that this was an exclusively Native ritual, one that will bring back only Native American ancestry, NOT whites. This is the first time where I’ve really noticed Natives explicitly shutting non-Native Americans out of their culture. From the very beginning the Native Americans have been very open to sharing their culture, even with the very first settlers. It seems that they needed to preserve something that was purely Native American.
I agree with P gui and Gina and Max, well I guess almost everyone, on the whole boarding school and Navajos situations. I think the schools were meant to be a form of racial cleansing, but in the non-killing sense. The United States did not want to commit mass murder and found the next best way to do things would be to let people keep the humanity but not their culture in a weird sort of racial cleansing that I have not seen so much of before. The point was to indoctrinate the American Indians into society, but that could never really happen because they would always look different than the "normal" white person. This indoctrination, but not really, shows America's true motives in that we always want to change people, but then they really still cant be part of society. For even if they go through this schooling, losing their heritage, making them "American" they still cannot vote, atleast I think thats what they were saying, with the example of that guy. In conclusion of this little rant, the Native Americans were stuck in between two worlds, alienated from both.
I also thought that the Navajo situation was pretty sweet, in a kinda wierd way that is, because displacement can never really be that "sweet". Jake Page really seemed to love that shit as well, he really had some sort of admiration or something for the Navajo. And I guess in the end their tactic was the best, and it is horribly depressing that it was the best tactic. With their success, it pretty much deemed any resistance to be useless. The only positive info we have recieved is when the Indians gave in, which sucks.
I am kinda curious if anyone has any other examples in history when giving in was a good idea? and do you think that this even was a good idea?
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: politicsmakemeangry
This reading gave many more examples of the United States active oppression toward the Natives. Being able to hold onto land solely for the reason that it “seemed too poor in resources and other attractions to interest the white population”. Clearly implying that if there were decent resources, the white population would have every right to simply take the land. I found it funny when Page was talking about “the rider” and how it was weaker than a treaty but for the government not really a big issue, but “at least morally a bit harder to break.” All of these troubling policies, laws, etc. were in the name of assimilation (a.k.a the main goal of the government). To get this mission accomplished, boarding school were the example used to show how to “bring Indian cultures to a complete end within a generation or two.” I was kind of amazed by the bluntness of the government actions and how hard/well the schools did their job of stripping Native American youth of their identity. To sum it up: “kill the Indian and save the man”.
I got a kick out of the Native Americans taking their own census in 1880 just because it really shows how separate they are considered at the time (of course they are included in the U.S. one 10 years later, but still). This brings me back to another story in the reading I was intrigued by, where a man is denied voting rights because his race belongs to an “alien nation”. Also, I am having a hard time grasping the “ghost dancing” but I greatly enjoyed having a change of pace in the reading with the stories.
A question I had was about some of the “Associations” and “Conferences” (pg. 311&312). What do you all think about these groups? They seem to have the Natives ideals in mind in some ways but not others, is the trade-off beneficial to them?
Page had an interesting theory in this chapter, that when tribes resettled in new environments that could not support their old custumes, new ones had to be made to fill the void. Page says this on page 32 about the Crow "Without the hunt, much of the seasonal work of the tribes was gone-both male and female work. New ways of achieving status-or forgoing it-had to be devised" It seems strange that dieing customs must be replaced, but it has happened several times in our reading. Such as the ghost dance, and peyote.
Also althow the the Navajo did fair better then most Indian tribes, I would still not call it winning. Their strategy was relocate into land that was so bad that white people did not even think it was worth settling. The land was not good enough for farming and families would often go days without food.
do you think the schools provided any benefits to the native americans?
The first thing that really stuck out to me in this reading was the rectangular shapes of the reservations. I feel like this really emphasizes how little the US government cared about the Native American reservations, because instead of planning out where they would be, the just marked it down on a map.
In response to what Max saying “it seems like no matter what, being forced off your land and into the desert kinda sucks” I agree with this, but I think Page could justify calling it not too shabby because, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the desert Navajo land to begin with?
I was also interested to learn that corporal punishment as a means of child rearing was unheard of in Native American societies. This seemed like a universal thing aspect of cultures to me much like prostitution that we read about earlier, and I think it is interesting that Native American society lacked both of those things.
On a different note, is the whole “separation of church and state” thing in the United States just a myth? Because it seems like a lot of these policy regarding Native Americans, are being created with Christianity at the heart of them.
Now my question, what do you think prevented other tribes from encroaching on lands outside their reservations and claiming squatters rights? Do you think the government simply allowed it to happen with the Navajos because nobody wanted the desert anyway so they didn’t see it as that big of a deal?
Ok so i posted this great thing but then accidentally quit the internet before i oculd post it and feel reaaaaaal stupid right now. Anyway basically waht I said in a nutshell was that the way native americans were sent to boarding schools reminded me heavily of apartheid south africa and how they taught the kids their Afrikaans to keep them down in the world. I found a similar situation of craftiness going on in this situation with the white people. Also when cooper mentioned hallucinogenics I almost cracked up, but then realized that he was indeed right, many native americans were much more in touch with nature than ever after. Also I have to say it is utterly wrong that the White europeans forced native americans to walk the trail of tears, and then dumped them in what would be considered mediocre land. To Zach, I would say the U.S. government did want mass murder of Native americans. Why else would you make people a walk god knows how many miles? Another thing that struck me as particularly sad was the fact many native american children forgot their native tongue, or WOULD NOT speak it when they returned to their elders. Imagine how the elders must have felt. All in all this chapter further depresses me and makes me realize humans have too much brain power for their own good
Q: Do you think the N.A. children fit in at boarding school?
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: language language language...
Like Gina said, it was nice to get something more recent in history so we can say “We definitely knew this happened” instead of “This probably might have happened, but we’re not sure.” I thought the boarding school thing was really interesting. Horribly depressing, but definitely interesting. I feel like I heard about some similar type of “boarding school” situation going on with a different group of people, either now or really recently. Also, the part about killing the Indian and saving the man was something I’d heard about before too, I think from the Sherman Alexie book for summer reading. That took place on a Spokane reservation, so it seems like that was a pretty widespread saying. In addition to it saying that Indians aren’t men, but it’s saying that they have the potential to be men (if the man part of them is “saved”), but it’s the Indian part of them that’s keeping that from happening. Add on the fact that this is shit they were drilling into the heads of children, and it’s so depressing. The part about Pratt’s school not allowing the kids to speak their own language is also an interesting part. I can’t remember who said this, but if they don’t know their language then they are basically forced out of their culture and forced into American society. This language thing reminded me of the Soweto uprising in South Africa during apartheid, where the kids’ schools were switching to Afrikaans. The Soweto uprising got attention of people in different countries, but I kind of doubt it’s the same situation with these boarding schools. My question is if people all over the world knew about these boarding schools and understood how much they fucked with things, do you think things might have happened differently? Like when other countries do things really messed up and then some more countries step in and tell them to cut it out?
So I also liked this reading and found the whole boarding school thing to be really interesting. The main thing that I thought was weird was the fact that the government seemed to be justifying the schools by saying “well, at least we aren’t killing them.” I thought this was absolutely crazy because while they didn’t kill them they definitely tried to kill their culture, and isn’t that almost as bad as killing the people? I just think that if their culture is killed ands they are basically turned into the “perfect white American” its basically as if you killed them and they don’t exist, I know not literally but in mind that’s what is happening.
I also thought Cooper brought up and interesting question, “My question is why did the Europeans fear a mixed race. Many of them had this blood idea and that they wanted to separate and record peoples lineage. Why is that?”
I think that white people have always had weird feelings about mixed races. I think this had less to do with the fact that they don’t like other races and more to do with how they really like themselves. They could be scared of other races, I don’t really know, but I think its more likely that they are more concerned with themselves. I think the reason they don’t want to have mixed races is because they don’t want the “bad blood” of other races to contaminate their “perfect” blood. I believe they think they are a special race and they want to be separate from others, almost like an exclusive club. I also think that they want to have a clear line between them and other races, which is why they seem to really like the whole lineage thing.
Ok so I couldn’t think of a question to go along with this but I did have one about the schools. This is kinda similar to Alec’s but here it is, Do you think that the kids in these schools disliked them/ felt out of place?
So like most people have been talking about, the section about the boarding schools was probably the saddest reading EVER. All of the new generations of NAs, the children, wouldn’t know anything about their backgrounds or culture! Before the schools, the children would be brought up by their communities, by relatives and elders…but the schools prevented those kids from having the culture filled education they SHOULD have had!!!! Agh it’s SO FRUSTRATING
Also the parts on pg. 308 that talks about the NAs “reinventing themselves yet again,” was also just ridiculous.
“New ways of living had to be imagined and implemented.” Pg 308
After having lived on their land for years and years, and having a comfortable living situation, and being moved time and time again just sounds so horrible.
My question has to do with pg. 307, when Page talked about the Hopis complaining about the Navajo presence, and I was wondering if people think tribes still nowadays don’t get along with other tribes?
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