Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:24 am Post subject: due 4/9
Hey y'all.
I found the last 2 little loner pages we read to be themost interesting. I had never even thought about wars going on- that didn't directly involve Native Americans- affecting them, but it makes total sense that they would. I don't know very much (okay anything at all really) about the French-Indian War, or the Seven Year War, but reading that "the two wars soon made it impossible for the tribes to emply one of their long-running survival strategies: playing one group off against each other- France against Britain, say, or Virginia against the Carolinas." This is the kind of divide-and-conquer strategy that the Europenans used against the Native Americans successfully. I'm sure having that security go away was a major downer for some of the tribes.
What do you guys think that most influential change for the people of the Plains was once they had horses?
This reading showed us how even very little contact with Europeans changed the live of Native Americans drastically. The Native Americans of the Plains didn’t live in close contact with Europeans or have any altercations with them, but two of their goods, guns and horses, completely changed the lives of everyone in the Plains. Horses made the largest impact. Once Native Americans in the Plains domesticated horses they switched their lives from being primarily agriculturists to hunters. Horse made it a lot easier to hunt and bring back more buffalo. And we’re back to the conversation we had about killing more buffalo than they could carry and the horse fixed that problem. It actually probably made it worse. Horses allowed the Native Americans to carry back a lot more buffalo. Horses also turned into a status symbol because the more you had the more buffalo you could kill and bring back so the more you could trade and the larger house you had. Horses also changed the lives of women and I think for the worse. They went from having a major role in the tribe’s community to turning them into property, like servants.
One thing I found extremely interesting was the system the Plain Native Americans derived to communicate with one another.
Overall do you think horses had a positive or negative impact on the Plain Native Americans?
I think that horses had a mixed affect on the Plains. I think they were an important step in the evolution of life for the Native Americans, because they were a mode of transportation, and made it easier for the Native Americans to gather food and transport buffalo. I also think that the existence of horses brought groups of Native Americans together, groups who would probably not have associated with each other when it was harder to travel long distances. Jake Page says “Sun dances and other ceremonies of these new cultures on the Plains could and often did include people from various tribes, as did trading and other activities. People from differing tribes and backgrounds were, after all, far more mobile now thanks to the horse…” (207). I think that horses helped the Native Americans establish important relationships with other tribes, in ways that were not just about war and trading.
I think horses also had a negative affect on the Plains. Like Maggie said, horses changed the social and cultural stratification in tribes. The way Jake Page describes it, it sounds like the existence of horses led the Native Americans to create kind of a exclusive boys club, where the men went off and celebrated their achievements, and the women were left out of this. Page says that “A wife’s prestige now derived from the success of her husband…” (208). This was a bad change, and sounds like it was probably also influenced by the culture of the Europeans.
I also think it’s interesting that the Native Americans became more materialistic with the existence of horses. Because they could now travel long distances to get food so they didn’t have to always be moving their homes around, and because they had an easier way to transport their possessions, they could become more attached to material goods. I wonder if some sort of consumerism started here?
What do you think the Europeans felt about the Native Americans having horses and guns?
The most intriguing part of the reading in my opinion was the section Jake Page points out the effects the gun (musket) and the horses had on the Indians. I hadn't previously thought of their importance, but now its hard to imagine everything occuring the way it did without them. I am sure it spead up the colonizing process an extreme amount. The Indians were much more dangerous and the prospect of killing eachother was not as big of a leap for them (simply shoot a few bullets and your set) I also found it fasinating the way the Indians began to form new myths with the addition of the horse and the gun. Many religions today encourage believers to pray and reflect, which is very difficult for some, so I find the idea of coming up with a nice story/escape as a relief (I might adopt the method). My question is...although I find it fun that these Indians took in the horse and gun why didn't they rebel against the Europeans (French, British)? _________________ Melipe Fatho
To answer Rachel's question, I think that the Europeans probably used horses and guns as commodities that they could trade with the Native Americans. I doubt that it ever occurred to the Europeans that the Native Americans could try to use these things against them in war. I think that generally the Europeans thought that Native Americans would fight among their tribes and so provided them with these things that would improve their war tactics, and in the end, be the demise of more Indians. It's sneaky, but if the Indians were never attacking the Europeans, and they were always attacking each other, it seems like a good way for the Europeans to indirectly cause the destruction of many Indian tribes.
Another interesting thing in this chapter was the changing role of women in the tribes because of changing methods of getting food. The Native Americans were becoming less dependent on agriculture, and more dependent on bison hunting which meant that women who had typically been responsible for a large part of the tribe's food source no longer had that power. Their status became more about their husband's status and less about the social status of her family. So, I just thought that it was interesting how many things about the culture of these people changed during this time. What were some other things that changed for the Indians at this time? (other than what has already been discussed-horses, guns, etc.)
I think an interesting result of the horses that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that all of the tribes on the plains completely shifted down, one pushing the other etc... The horses could not live in the harsh winter conditions of the north and the natives knew that the further south they went the warmer it would be and the more horses they could sustain. The Natives in the North had the most contact with the Europeans, and therefore the most horses and began the shift which then turned into a domino effect from north to south. I don't know if I have an opinion on whether this is good or bad, but I think it's simply very interesting to note.
A problem that arose from the horses that I would say is blatantly negative are the new gender roles within the tribes. Once the hunters began to use their horses to make their hunts more efficient and to move their kills once they were dead, women were needed less to work in the fields and sustain the tribe through agriculture. They became workers for the men when they arrived home from their hunts and if a hunter was particularly good he would need more wives to do more work with the hides he had gathered. I think the thing that really bothered me about all of this was that Page said women's power and status was no longer related to their own accomplishments but solely to their husbands which was not the case before but had been the case with the Europeans.
Do you think that the gender roles that arose was due to the new hunting methods and less need for agriculture, or do you think the tribes observed the Europeans and this also had an effect on the women's new role in the tribes?
(I don't have any proof for the latter it's just a theory.)
The aspect of horses in this reading opened a lot of doors for the Native Americans that I hadn't considered before. The domestication of horses, for the Native Americans, became a strong spiritual connection. Horses inspired new myths (kind of an oxymoron, i guess, but whatever) for the Native Americans, and because their stories and myths were so connected, horses were very sacred. They were also the fastest form of transportation, and strong enough to help with a lot of the manual labor.
As Rachel mentioned, the presence of horses also cause some gender divisions among the people of the tribes. This made me interested in sexism among the Native American tribes. Jake Page has mentioned that some Indian chiefs practiced polygamy, and that women had specific roles in the tribe. Rachel mentioned that it might have been partly due to the Europeans, but do you think this is true? Do you think that sexism among the Indians was increasing, and if so, why?
One of the things I found interesting from the readings last night was how the Europeans thought that the plains tribes’ sun dances were a mockery of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. They thought that the idea of people, or in the Christian Europeans case a person, suffering for the group was strictly what god did, and thought the only way the natives would do this was out of disrespect towards their religion. They couldn’t see that other people could have had the same idea as them.
A lot of people have talked about the horses effect or the plains tribe’s. One of the things that I found most interesting from that passage was how Jake described the feeling of riding a horse. I’d never really thought about it as souring through the air, and can imagine to a people who had never experienced it before it must have been amazing. That doesn’t really have much to do with how they turned out in the end, but just something that helped me really relate to them. What in this chapter helped you put things in perspective? Did anything in particular really make you go woah, I totally know what he means.
My thoughts when reading this were really similar to those of Rachel's. I immediately thought of some of the European cultural influences that would come along with horses, the first being the Europe's obsession to expand and explore. Horses as tools provide MUCH easier transportation for natives. I kept thinking about the PBS program we watched, where Metacom by the end of most scenes would be furiously trying to row his boat off somewhere in attempt to save his village.
Anyway, I thought domesticated horses at this point in the book are the biggest and most significant developments next to agriculture, mostly because of how it affects the rate at which natives can travel and build.
As for the sexism, I can't be sure, but I've read and seen in some movies that there were always for the most part female and male roles in some Indian societies. It seemed like it was more of the traveling aspect that made it seem more apparent that males were off doing something while the women were back at home, until Alex pointed out that more hunting meant more work for women, and more accomplishment for the men. I thought that was a really interesting way to look at it.
Do you think the natives are going to use horses in battle, making them vulnerable to attack?
I also found the fact that the Europeans saw the plain tribes' sun dances a mockery of Christ's crucifixion. I just didn't understand if they thought the Native Indians were actually mocking it (which wouldn't make any sense because they wouldn't have known anything about it, really) or if they just saw the resemblance and thought it offensive.
Otherwise, going to the change in gender roles with the introduction of horses and Alex's question, I think definitely the former (but I may just not understand the latter cause I am very tired). The decline of dependency of agriculture definitely started the gender role change for women, seeing as that was their major "purpose" in their societies. With the increase in male-dominated hunting, the women were depended on to support their husbands more than be independent, to the point where their social standing was based on their husband.
Page constantly mentions that the two things that allowed these drastic changes for the Plain Tribes were horses, and to a lesser extent guns. Why do you guys think guns were so much less important in making these changes?
The influence of horses on the Cheyenne structure and society is genuinely interesting. What I thought were just animals domesticated for the sole purpose of being able to get around much more easily carry a deeper meaning. Even if the original intention was just to be able to travel and hunt more efficiently and quickly, it drastically affected women's contributions to everyday living, stunting the importance of agriculture, a station mainly tended to by women. It fascinates me so much because it's like saying 'the men began to run faster and hunt quicker, and as a result, women's roles deteriorated.' It's madness. How something so seemingly meaningless as a new form of transportation could cause something so meaningful sends me reeling.
If the women were relatively formidable powerholders, how did it come to be that it was still the men who went to round up and kill the bison while the women were left to planting? Who decided these roles?
Also, what would be different if horses were never domesticated? How would it have affected hunting and trading?
So in my own opinion this was the perfect sized reading! Not to long not too short. Perfect length to keep my attention.
Alright get back on track. Unlike Steph I found the most interesting pages to be the first couple. I loved the Cheyennes story about how it came that humans ate the bison...or was it buffalo? I'm pretty sure it was bison. Anyway I also really enjoyed learning about the horses. That's such a stereotypical Native American thing is to see them riding on horses. I found it very interesting to see how they didn't just magically get horses. The horses ran away from the Spanish. I also liked that Page showed the reality of how it took a long time for the Native Americans to learn how to raise, breed and take care of horses.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
