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Mfischhoff · Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 51

Actively Read "Resistance to Civil Government" by Henry David Thoreau in your packet on pp. 43-35

Respond on our forum (http://histroydepartment.forumsland.org) to the following questions or to the responses of your classmates: What does Thoreau see as the relationship between government and freedom? How does he justify breaking the law? Do you agree or disagree with his viewpoints?

Please write a minimum of 100-200 words and include a question in your post for your peers to respond to if they choose.

hlipkin · Joined: 15 Oct 2009 Posts: 39

What does Thoreau see as the relationship between government and freedom?

"That government is best which governs not at all," (pg 44)
Thoreau does not feel that the government guarentees individual freedom in the best way. He believes that the government is proof of how men can be imposed on for the advantage of the government. He describes a government in which the decisions are based off of the majority's opinion as unjust. He believes that ordinary men should fight for their own freeom, even if their opinions do not support those of the majority, as "a single man can bend it [the government] to his will" (pg. 44)

How does he justify breaking the law?

Thoreau believes that it is ok to break the law. Since, according to him, unjust laws exist, men have every right to speak out against the law and fight for their own opinions. He believes that the fighters, the men who are fighting for justice and freedom, are found in prison. Prison is the place for people who have acted on their own principles. Thoreau argues that it is worth it to be honest and not live in fear of imprisonment, for after all, "truth is stronger than error." (pg 45)

Do you agree or disagree with his viewpoints?

Hmm, I agree with some of Thoreau's viewpoints. I agree that people who have spoken out against the law are often found in prison, and I agree that it is important for one to make his/her position on an issue clear, but I disagree that the best government is no government at all.

I think that without a government, there would be no order. I believe it is necessary for people to take control because that is the only way things will get accomplished.

My question: On the top of page 45, Thoreau says, "I came into this world, not chiefly to make this a good place to live in, but to live in it, be it good or bad. A man has not every thing to do, but something; and because he cannot do every thing it is not necessary that he should do something wrong." What does this mean to you and do you agree or disagree with it? Shocked

pgui · Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Posts: 36

I believe Thoreau thinks that it is sometimes alright to break a law because he believes that unjust laws do exist and because he believes that laws are not the best way to get people to do the right thing. he believes that people should do what they think is right without the fear of getting punished by the government. On page 44 he writes "The only obligation which i have a right to assume, is to do at any time what i think is right. It is truly enough said, that a corporation has no conscience; but a corporation of conscientious men is a corporation with a conscience. Law never made men a whit more just; and by means of their respect for it, even the well disposed are daily made the agents of injustice." Although this concept of people just doing right by themselves may seem unrealistic or even childish. however i believe him to be over exaggerating to make a point. most people will do what is right most of the time unless they are pushed to do wrong by poverty or fear. If their were fewer laws that were more base and interpretative people could choose for themselves how they want to live. People in general act like those around them. If it was the norm to live honestly then others would also live honestly. Therefore i agree that "That government is best which governs least."

jmax · Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 25

this is from a letter that martin luther king jr. wrote while in jail, justifying his conscious decision to disobey the law.

"One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust."

(letter from birmingham jail)

awang · Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 7

I think that Thoreau believe people are created equal before the words, but not equal in social circumstance. “…but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient.”(p44) Government represents as a tool to fight for freedom, but the majority uses the minority’s freedom to exchange for advantage. Moreover, the people who stay in wealth and power have the rights to lead the game because they are physically stronger. Furthermore, some people are criticized by society and get into prison by questioning fairness about the unjust laws. As a result, some people choose to stay in quite and live in deception, even though they know its fault. “Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for just man is also a prison.”(p45) Under peer pressure and those rules, people’s lives can be described as a huge prison because their rights are limited. They only act as a puppet which controlled by the government.

athornton · Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 23

What does Thoreau see as the relationship between government and freedom?
- I think that Thoreau believed that the government does not make the right decisions and that people have the right to protest against them. He goes into saying that there are unjust laws and people should not sit back and watch as these laws go into effect. He wants people to stand up for their freedom. Thoreau thinks that taking action when action is needed is acceptable. He also thinks that government does more harm than good.

How does he justify breaking the law?
-He justifies it by saying people have the right to change laws that are unjust or wrong. He says that the common man should stand up for what he believes in and protest against unjust laws, even if it is a radical idea.

Do you agree or disagree with his viewpoints?
-I agree with some of his points his points. I agree that people should be able to stand up and fight against bad laws. That is a big idea in this country and the US would not be the same without it. I found a strong connection between what Thoreau says and the Constitution. The Constitution says that people have the right to overthrow government that has wronged its people in a significant way. Thoreau says something very similar to this. I don't think that government is completely bad though. I think it does some good, even though it might very well be as corrupt as he says.

My question: Its ironic that Thoreau's document says that the constitution is flawed while a good portion of his ideas are basically taken from the constitution. Do you think he did this purposefully or it happened by accident?

gchai · Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 16 Location: In your closet

What does Thoreau see as the relationship between government and freedom?
He feels that a government is best when it is only governing few, or not at all, since using the majority isn't always the best. He talks about how one should fight for his freedom even if its not majority thought.

How does he justify breaking the law?
He justifys it by saying there are just and unjust laws. Following unjust laws until they are just would take too long, so the best way to right unjust laws are to protest. He also points out that if you are in prison, it means you stood up for something. It reminds me of a quote from Winston Churchill

asteven · Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

I’ll answer Alex’s question: Its ironic that Thoreau's document says that the constitution is flawed while a good portion of his ideas are basically taken from the constitution. Do you think he did this purposefully or it happened by accident?

I think Thoreau writes in a very intentional style, and he stands pretty confidently behind everything he says. That, combined with the fact that he makes other contradictions in his essay, leads me to believe that he did it on purpose. For the first half of page 44 he talks about the nuisance of government and his wish for it to disappear completely (does anyone know if he was officially an anarchist?), but then he turns around to acknowledge that his dream is not a realistic idea: “But, to speak practically and as a citizen... I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government.” I actually really respect that acknowledgment-- I think it’s what separates this piece from being just another anarchistic rant. More in line with Alex’s question, Thoreau denounces the Constitution as “evil”, yet his views on what the relationship between the people and government should be seem to be taken straight from the Declaration of Independence (people should reject and/or change the government if it’s not working for them, etc). I honestly don’t know why he includes these conflicting viewpoints, or if there’s something big I’m missing (I found the reading pretty difficult to understand), but I definitely think there’s something to be said in the fact that he uses this sort of technique.

My question: Thoreau says that “Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.” What does Thoreau mean by this? Does he consider himself a just man, and if so, does this mean he thinks he belongs in prison?

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