Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: Post for Friday, March 5th
This was a cool reading.. I'm not sure if I liked it or not. It's weird because I feel like it was SO different from everything else we've read about the boarding schools. Now I'm all confused. I'm glad we got first hand reactions about the school though, but I definitely found them very surprising.
I thought that using the word "detribalize" was a good word to describe the goal of the schools. I'm confused, however, by the idea of "assimilation." How does that apply to the schools? How did they "assimilate"?
Something that made me mad was the idea of stripping children of their "cultural knowledge and loyalties." I just don't get WHY, I guess. It frustrates me.
I thought it was weird how much freedom the students seemed to get at the boarding schools, especially boys. In a way, and I'm scared to say this... it reminds me of things at CSW a little. "Wherever students escaped adult supervision, students set the rules for social grouping and interaction." (p. 210) It's cool that the students would turn to other students at Chilocco to "recreate and replace the close supportive ties of family and community." That sounds a LOT like CSW and the boarding life here... Agree?
Does anyone know what it means that "Tribal identity dominated student interaction in particular places and situations, while it lay dormant or unexpressed elsewhere"??
People liked the school?! Whaaat. It's interesting though!
I found this reading very interesting because it had such a different perspective on boarding schools from what Martha has told us. But like Gina I also found this a little weird. I feel like the people Lomawaima interviewed was not a varied enough or big enough group. It seems like she only interviewed the people who really liked the school or who did not really care. I think it would have been interesting if she had interviewed more people who really hated the school. I would have liked to know what they did during the school day more in-depth. But maybe it wasn’t the people she chose to interview, it might have been a very good, kind considering school compared to the rest of them but I doubt it. I am not sure, but I feel like most of the people she interviewed were hiding something about the school, something about their experiences, or she cut the bad parts about it out. I am not sure and I have no idea why the author would want to cut the bad things out.
Gina, I think the quote "Tribal identity dominated student interaction in particular places and situations, while it lay dormant or unexpressed elsewhere"?? means that while they were in classes and other school organized activities they learned to surrpress their tribal identity, the way they acted, dressed, related to each other, but when they were not around adults, the students separated into very defined groups based on their tribes, age, ability to speak their native languages and if they were completely Native American or only have. Maybe they did not display their tribal identity around the teachers and staff because the students wanted them to think they had “assimilated” and lost their culture. I am not sure if that answers your question.
It is a little scary that they still had these boarding schools in the 1980’s. They probably did not have the same goals and were less harsh but I am not sure. “It seems unlikely that students knew each other’s precise degree of blood, as adumbrated in the schools’ enrollment records, which specified 4/4, ¾, ½, and ¼ Indian “blood”. (page 220) This idea of degree of blood keeps on coming up, not only in Native Americans in history and know but also during slavery. I guess it was a good way to control people. I find it rather awful that people would be categorized like this instead of just by the culture they identify with.
Do you think the idea of finding out people’s “blood” percentage will continue into the future and continue to be a way to control people? Or will it be seen as bad and why?
To answer some of Gina's questions- the schools assimilated the students by teaching the students "how to know to meet people and... what to say when you get there and... how to act, how to look when you get there." [pg 231] They not only got rid of (or tried to) get rid of any Native American culture the students might have, but the schools put (or tried to) put a new culture in its place. (Assimilation is when a group of people take on (or are forced to take on) the beliefs/lifestyle of another culture, usually the mainstream one.)
"Tribal identity dominated student interaction in particular places and situations, while it lay dormant or unexpressed elsewhere"= Sometimes tribe was a big deal, sometimes it wasn't. For example, when it came to celebrations, the students would usually divide into east or west, depending on their tribe's place of origin. Most of the time (it seems) that tribe didn't matter so much in casual social interaction.
I'm not sure I agree with the CSW boarding dept trying or succeeding to recreate or replace family. During my time here, it's advertised itself just as another place where you can feel safe and be supported (and it's succeeded for the most part in my experience.) A home away from home, if you will.
It was really interesting to see that after graduating, the benefits of attending Chilocco went beyond the classroom. For example, on pg 230-1 there was a lot about how learning a trade was very helpful, learning values such as friendship and perseverance, in addition to what European-America valued in appearance and reputation. Although I was upset with how the school tried to remove the students' culture, it looks like the skills and European-American norms they learned helped them get by.
This reading really struck a chord with me because it was so relevant to my personal life as a minority in CSW's boarding program. Although the boarding school wanted to "detribalize", they made NA identity stronger in many ways. In my experience, CSW as a school has imposed certain values upon me. Believe it or not, I feel much more freedom of expression in the boarding dept than I do at school. Being at CSW has stripped my "cultural knowledge and loyalties" (for the worse). However, attempts to take it away only make me fight harder for my place here as a Latina, causing me to learn/connect/hold on more to my roots. This was something that was true for some of the people we interviewed, and I wonder if this is true for any minority in an institution, or if it's an experience specific to boarding...
I liked this reading (more in the begining however) It was a little repetitive but I enjoyed the interviews that they had with people. I was really surprised at how many people had such fond memories of the schools. They had so much freedom to what basically whatever they wanted.
I agree with Celina that
Perhaps the concept of having such a school was inherently messed up but the students seemed to enjoy them and as depressing a thing to say as this may be when they graduated the skills they learned in the schools could have been more useful than the things they would have learned with their tribes. Although I guess it is all relative because had they not been forced into white culture the skills acquired in a tribe would have been more useful.
I felt bad for kid who did not know what to do after he graduated and ended up dead. this really showed me that the school did not care for the students very much and had a clear objective. Most things about the school however seemed pretty OK. The schools seem to me like a fine place when looking at what they actually were other than the fact that it was basically all Native Americans it seemed like a decent environment to learn in. Except for the alcohol and peyote use (who else was surprised by the morning peyote meeting)
The thing that makes me angry is why the schools were created and that was essentially to strip the people of their identity and culture. Like many other things with malicious intent people are able to sugar coat it.
This is what really separates a school such as this to csw. I am not a boarding minority but i feel that because csw does not have malicious intent in possibly stripping away someones identity it is not nearly as bad. There will always be a majority in any setting and their views and culture will be seen and heard the most. I don't think that this is necessarily bad this is just the way people as individuals are.
What do you think of this problem do you think that forcing assimilation is to blame on human nature or the whole organization? What else (perhaps in American history) had malicious intent that was sugar coated?
THis was scary recent. I found the incoherent statigie that the school employed to detribalize the students very confusing. On one hand the were forced to speek english and dress white, and other stuff, but then they would do things like make traditional native designs in the rugs they made.
I was surprised by the positive attitudes that most of the alums had looking back, It seemed to me that between the militaristic teach styles and fighting that many more people would have had negative experiences.
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: dfghjklweather girl
So like gina I found this reading confusing especially weird and interwsting during the begening when all of the student accounts were realy posotive and they didn’t seem bad at all. Like the one witht the vanilla drinking and the boys and girls going out and dancing. The rule that people can go out till one and then come back seems like really fun and easy but then I think I understood hy there was this blanket of greatness. I think that people wanted these students to have fun and feel like they were still kind of doing whatever they want and then they might get tricked into thinking tht they are not being stripped of there identity. Then if you look deeper you realize that their names have all been changed and they same that the classes are very strict and they are only being taught European belifs. And the most basic that they were stolen from their own family. But still for the first half of the reading was tricky cuz it had a semblance
So First off I would like to Echo Gigi and Say that I feel as though the responses about Boarding schools were quite skewed. Somewhere in me, I feel as though the interviewers were very selective about who was interviewed. But thats just me, isn't it? For me also i got the sense that instead of brutality (only based on this reading) the school used a more persuasive method to lure native american children away from their culture by use of enticement. The dances as cooper mentioned and vanilla drinking were used as distractions to keep children unaware, as well as possibly show them that the white world was "better." Again, I feel that the militaristic approach that we even witnessed today during "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." Regardless it was weird to see this perspective. Another thought that occured to me while reading this was perhaps that these are brainwashed students and they have completed the assimilation process and are fit to be interviewed. Horrible.
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: ehh
I really enjoyed this reading. I thought it was incredibly interesting to read all these seemingly positive accounts of something we view so negatively. I feel like one of the reasons that the boarding schools were so effective at de-tribalizing the Native Americans is because they weren’t aware it was happening (at least that is the impression I got from this reading) When the British colonized Australia, they also had “de-tribalizing boarding schools” for the Aborigines but from what I remember from the Australian Identity class I took, they were much more severe. I would be interested to know if there were any opposing view points from the Native Americans, because a unanimous good feeling doesn’t seem probable. Whether the author merely neglected to mention the people with those views or just everyone that was interviewed had the same opinion is a different thing. The stories these people had were very similar to other stories I have heard/read/seen etc of what life at a boarding highschool is like, because I was expecting the conditions and quality of life to be much worse.
A rather strange idea that I had was, perhaps one of the most effective means of “de-tribalization” was the incredibly close intertribal friendships the students had. These friendships broke down cultural barriers, and since they were in such immediate close contact with other tribes and cultures made the lines between who they are and what they come from even more blurry than they already were.
So I find the whole thing about boarding schools very interesting considering we are technically at one. I realize that its not the same exact thing but the "boarding" part is the same and along with that comes pretty strict rules. I think that basically all boarding schools share some similarities with the ones that Native Americans were put into. I find this really scary to think about because I feel like there arent really that many differences within the curriculum in most schools. From the way I understand it, while they do get a lot of strong emphasis on "christian" ideals, I feel that they really just ignored the Native American culture, which in my opinion, is kind of what we do today. Yes, we learn about the Native Americans briefly, but, the fact that Pocahontas is basically a lie proves to me that the little we learn, is mostly wrong and over-generalized.
For some reason I also got really freaked out when I realized that these schools were still around in the 1980's. I dont really know why but that just hit me pretty hard for some reason. I guess I like to think that the closer we get to the current year, the more and more we realize what is right and wrong, even though I know I cant really make that assumption. Like Gigi I would hope that they were slightly better than when they started out but I dont know if they were for sure.
And to try and answer Gigi's question, I definitely think that the blood percentages will continue in the future. I've said this in previous post but I believe that people, especially whites, have an interest in their race and I think they see the blood percentages as a legitimate way to measure it. I also think it makes them stand out, which is a plus to them. Exclusivity seems to be a strong factor in this whole thing. Anyways I think that it will continue as long as people feel that they are better than another race, which unfortunately, still goes on today and will go on for quite some time.
I really liked this reading since the boarding school topic is just so strange...I wasn't surprised that they failed with assimilating students and taking away their culture. It seems like if you bring a bunch of people together that have something very strong in common, in this case their culture, and try and take that thing away from them...it's just not going to happen. Whether it's from intentional defiance, or just from finding strength in what they have in common, their sense of community is probably just going to grow. I was also really disturbed that this Chilocco school graduated its last class in 1980. So many questions about that, like what led up to it closing, how well known was the subject...
Something that surprised me was on page 211 where it said "female students were more closely chaperoned and not allowed free access to the outdoors and neighboring communities." Was this something unique to these boarding schools, or just general sexism and inequality from the time period?
Hii everyone,
So I also enjoyed this reading, it was refreshing to read not Jake Page, and about other points of views….but also realllly weird. I felt like the boarding schools were described as much more fun that I thought they were. I guess fun isn’t the right word at all, but compared to the terrible image put in my head from Jake’s reading…it seems pretty interesting. Also I feel like the boarding schools are perceived as much more horrible than reality? Already in the movie we’re watching it’s all slow motion when they cut the boy’s hair and it’s all depressing and he refuses to answer the teacher’s question and all of the dramatic stuff.
I thought the quote from the girl Marian, who talked about being assigned in the kitchen when she was new, was really interesting. Specifically, when she talked about how she didn’t tattle on the older girl who took Marian’s stool away, and there was a sense of acceptance after she stayed quiet. I feel like that kind of high school drama happens all the time in schools nowadays too.
I was pretty shocked when I realized that boarding schools like this were running until the early 80s. I didn’t realize how recent all of this was! That’s insane.
The reading meant a lot more to me because I realized how closely the time period of the boarding schools was to now.
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: bost
This reading was very different in its information and perspectives on the schools. For whatever reason, a large enough group of people was certainly not interviewed and although “biaslessness” is impossible, this leans too far in one direction. Some of the things here were the complete opposite of what I have heard. “Tribal identity dominated student interaction in particular places and situations, while it lay dormant or unexpressed elsewhere”. That seems very contradictory towards what we have read thus far in other sources. I would like to learn more about Lomawaima in this context because I want to know what reason (if any) she has to intentionally bias information that she gathers in an interview. We have heard a lot of bad things about the culture oppression and the cruelty in these boarding schools, so how come we are not hearing those things from the interviews? And why is it written that “Tribal identity dominated student interaction”
Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: ahhh
The government’s goal with these boarding schools was to assimilate their students, or “detribalize”. Yet it seems like while it works to some extent, the Native American youth remain somewhat connected with their culture. A lot of the stories were not related to loss of identity but more about the life at the schools until we get to the gang stories. The “gangs” seemed to be more like certain groups of people getting together as friends working and playing together rather than excessive fighting all the time. I mean obviously they are still relatively young (I assume, unsure about the ages) and highly restricted on these campuses so their “gangs” aren’t going to be as extreme as gangs elsewhere. I guess I just found the word “gang” a bit much for what their activities actually entailed. A point brought up in the reading which we have seen before somewhere, was about how not to snitch on others. It was another factor to determine acceptance amongst peers. Also a HUGE theme in this reading was male vs. female restrictions and culture. The women weren’t allowed to go very far on campus while the guys would wander into the woods. Stomp dancing and parching corn both seems significant too but I struggled to find actually descriptions of the activities which make them hard to write about anything other than how popular they were. ALSO, the alcohol making was kind of surprising because while I am aware of the connection between alcohol troubles and some Native Americans nowadays, it’s saddening to see the process happening starting with them so young. Very informative reading even though I didn’t feel some of the stories added very much.
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