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Mfischhoff · Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 51

Please actively read pp. 96-111 and pp. 120-121 from Ch. 4 in your Jake Page.

Write a thoughtful response on our forum of between 100-200 words. Posts that do not include a question for your peers will not be counted. (Hint: Think of how/why/do you agree/do you think questions.)

Here is a question to get you started: What were the most important factors shaping perceptions that Europeans and Native Americans had of one another?

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mmcgowan18 · Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 27

In the Perceptions section, Page addresses the question were these really human beings with souls? I know it sounds crazy but I don’t really think that’s such inappropriate question. If we happened upon beings that looked like us but lived a completely different way than us, I think we would ask the same kind of question. Because Europeans didn’t have a clear answer, they weren’t sure on how to treat Native Americans. Like Martha said in class the church was the first group of people to say they were human and treat them like they were. But even Christian teachings were sending Europeans mixed messages. Christians are supposed to spread the word of God but what do you do if they don’t accept it. And just like any other religion, Christians thought they held the truth. But the Europeans used Christianity to justify their actions a little too much. Page didn’t seem to go into the details very much but he says a few times that the Europeans were very violent towards the Native Americans.

Something I found interesting in Population and the Small Pox section was how none of the scientists could agree on how many Native Americans lived here before Europeans arrived. Especially how the numbers different by almost 20 million.

I talked about a little about how the Europeans thought about Native Americans but I didn’t feel like Page touched upon of the Native American felt about the Europeans. I mean it can definitely be inferred, but did any of you find any places Page writes about that relationship?

mnorton · Joined: 14 Oct 2009 Posts: 23

Hi everyone!

To answer Maggie's question, I think that the important thing about the way that Native Americans perceived the Europeans is that their perceptions varied greatly. In the last couple of pages of the chapter Page states that in some of the first encounters Indians had with white folks, they saw them as foreign, but not necessarily harmful or threatening. Often times the Native Americans would meet the Europeans with gifts, and approached them with curiosity. Other encounters were more violent, or at least less welcoming. Not only does Page state thee things, but it is apparent in the stories dictated in the beginning of the chapter. Like the varying reactions to Europeans, each group of Indian people had their own stories or prophecies about the coming of white people. I thought this was the most interesting art of the chapter. The stories show white folks as leaders, or as evil, sickness and death. The first story is one where the Native American look to the white man as their "father". The second story is one where the white people worship the Native American woman and make her their queen. In the third story the Native Americans are infected by the white man's diseases and so they see him as evil, full or sickness and death.

So, I think that the other thing that Maggie said, about the Europeans questioning whether the Indians had souls is interesting. I started wondering how the reactions would be different now if we met other beings that looked and lived completely differently from us, that we hadn't known existed. The scary thing is that maybe we would have some of the same, or worse reactions. So maybe its not a very important question, but I do think that it is thought provoking. How would we react in modern time to a group of completely alien people? What might the first interactions be like? Would we use what we now know from history, or would we forget and go with our instincts?

pkelley · Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 12

I agree with you completely on the idea that the Europeans may have had a hard time grasping the concept of other humans at a different point in development, and their new discovery probably played as a large factor in causing the Europeans to perceive the natives to be an inferior race. Though I don’t think that it justifies the actions of the Europeans at all, rather it just helped them create first and final impressions of each other. I also found that looking through the perspective of natives who met disease before the Europeans made it easy to see how they could be considered evil and threatening death bringers; I never looked at the situation in that light before and found it to be really interesting.

Natives not having souls seems like a stretch to me, if I were placed in the position of the Europeans I probably wouldn’t be quick to assume anything about a race of people I just encountered.

Maggie’s mention to Christianity makes me think about what it actually may have meant to most Europeans to have a soul. What does it mean to not have a soul, and are you any less of a human?

semmet · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 41

Fascinating question. Hard to answer (grr. haha) but interesting nonetheless. I think that because of all the knowledge of small tribes around the world, today we (meaning Americans, or people from '1st world' countries that theoretically know more about parts of the world) would be shocked, but treat them as human beings with souls. I think we would still approach them with fear, or hesitation, just because of human nature. Generally most people are slightly timid when meeting new people (even those who are just in a different social group), so meeting a whole new society would be something along those lines but to a much higher degree.

A lot oft this reading seemed to cover the same sort of ideas about varying estimates on population pre-Columbus and Europeans, but I liked how there were reasons given to go along with the estimates. Not only did some archaeologists do the reverse percentage thing (like if this percent died, and there were this many left, then this many existed in the first place), but they also did things like use censuses, look at human remains, and try to analyze the living quarters that have been discovered.

Page writes about the "perceived levels, and the parlance associated with them," and goes on to say that they "would remain in the Western mind as late as the early years of the twentieth century" (109). Do you think these ideas are truly gone? If so, do you agree with the time they went away? FYI- parlance means "a particular way of speaking or using words." so like connotation, and implications i guess.

asteward · Joined: 14 Oct 2009 Posts: 27

As an answer to Maggie's question, in the very beginning Page references the Native Americans' reaction to the first arrival of the Spaniards, and how they believed it was the second coming of their god. The thing that I found most interesting about that story is that even after it became clear that it was in fact the Spaniards and they destroyed the city of the people was that they still had faith that their god would return.

In contrast to that, there was the story of the Native American woman whose guy left her to float in the water until she met the white people who accepted her as their queen. I thought this story was especially important because I don't want us to fall into this black-and-white mentality where the Native Americans are always welcoming and the Europeans always kill them and take their stuff. And if it's not that stereotype, then it's the opposite, where the Native Americans are just savages killing the Europeans who were just trying to help them out. It's so biased that it's hard to tell exactly how they first met in the very beginning, but it was nice to have these contrasting stories to provide a different viewpoint.

What do you think the reaction to the news of the Native American people was like back in Europe?

rbennett · Joined: 14 Oct 2009 Posts: 39

Wow. Three people posted while I was typing this…oh well.

I like your question Meg! To answer it, I think if we became in contact a group of alien people we would react with our instincts. Just like the Native Americans, I think we would react with curiosity as well as fear and other emotions, because when encountered with something foreign, people generally react with strong emotions. I think it takes time for people to move past instinct and use previous knowledge and logical thinking to interact with something unknown.

Both the Europeans and the Native American’s reacted with their instincts when they encountered each other. These instincts were built off what each group of people knew; the Europeans perceived the Native Americans as savages and uncivilized because they were basing these perceptions off of their own definition of civilized. Because they perceived the Native Americans as subordinate, the Europeans instinct was to conquer and take advantage of the “barbarians.” The Native American's also reacted with instinct. I thought it was interesting when Page wrote "...it was fairly common for Indian people to greet visitors with elaborate patting and rubbing." (120). To me, this seemed like some sort of instinct, to want to touch something new and unknown.

really can’t think of a question. Sorry guys. That’s probably why so many people have posted while I’ve been trying to think of one, haha.

Pipe · Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 14

I think a good movie to watch in this class or on your own time is District 9. It is inspired by the apartheid in South Africa, but it explores some ideas that Meg and Maggie hit on (about meeting a new alien people and how us humans would react).

Back to the past though...I am not sure if we can definitely say that the Native Americans and Europeans reaction to eachothers were different. Perhaps the Natives were asking themselves the same questions (do they have souls?) we probably don't hear about it as much because we do not speak their language and their experiences were mabe not documented. For those who were friendly, their myths and stories with the Norse (supposedly) could have been a factor.

Speaking of which the most intriguing part for me was when he speaks of prophecy and how it is usually linked to events in the past. I always thought of history that way but I never saw something religious like prophecy in that light. Makes me see religion, mythology differently as a piece of time and something we can use to look at the future. My question to the public is what do you guys make of the stories that incorporated white men ? do you see them as prophecy ? which ones? and what can you gather about the past from them?
_________________
Melipe Fatho

mholmes · Joined: 01 Apr 2010 Posts: 15

Starting where I left off in class, one of the most interesting things to me is how the diseases were perceived by both the natives and the explorers. Their lack of knowledge about medicine and the way disease spread definitely had an effect on how they viewed each other. Both group turned to their religion for answers, the Europeans believing that god was on their side, clearing the path for them on their conquest. At least some natives, Jake says, looked up to these people as great shamans because of the incredible immunity to the disease that were butchering their population. This lack of knowledge really made for some unusual and interesting interactions and views of the opposite groups.

My question is how would have a better understanding of medicine and disease affected the views of both the natives and the Europeans? Would the Europeans have tried to stop what they had done if they had known?

semmet · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 41

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
(to District 9)

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