Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:42 am Post subject: Pages 336-350 and 355-357
One of the main things that stuck out to me after finishing this reading was the feeling that Indians aren't allowed to simply live. They are either forced to "learn to be white" (which I'm going to touch on later), or they needed to remain completely true to their tribe's original way of life.
On page 349 Page put it nicely, saying that Native Americans who had developed slightly (without transitioning all the way to 'whitehood') were "evidently too civiliazed, or at least not savage enough, to be considered in the same category as Indians and so they... [were] subject to territorial laws and without the protection of the federal government." It is totally unrealisitc and unfair to expect people to act in such a black and white manner; people's development needs to be fluid, free to change however it may without the risk of losing governmental proetection.
I mentioned before the phrase "learn to be white" (337) because it reallky stood out to me. I think of white as being a race, concerning only skin tone, but apparently it is actually a way of life? (note the sarcasm/ whatever-ness). I know Jakey-boy probably wasn't trying to cause a fuss or make some political statement, but to me that implies that there is a certain way all white people act (and that it's possible to learn it). Just as it is wrong to say that all black people act one way, or that you can teach a gay person to be straight, it seemed like a strange thing to say. I guess just saying "American" would have been more effective to me as a reader.
ANYWAYS- Also on page 337 Page wrote "Yet by 1900 violent outbreaks of Indians were unlikely, and the trials and tribulations of Indian country had continued to diminish as a topic of concern in the policy centers of Washington, D.C." Do y'all think it diminished as a direct result of the less violent ways? Opinions? Ideas?
To answer Steph’s question, I think “violent outbreaks” of Native Americans diminished because the U.S. government had finally utterly suppressed them. This idea is actually what stuck out to me the most in this chapter: this idea that the Native Americans were no longer of much importance to the U.S. because the white men had successfully taken all the power. I think the fact that the U.S. Army was no longer involved in Native American affairs is of huge significance, because they used to be very involved in trying to suppress them. But now the Native Americans were an afterthought, no longer really in the way of U.S. expansion. And if they were in the way, the U.S. government could push them aside very easily. This was made evident by all the laws/changing of laws that happened in this period of time. For example, Jake Page writes about a ruling by the Supreme Court “…Indian tribes were mere remnants now of their former selves and unable to manage their own affairs, and were in all respects wards of the federal government, and furthermore that Congress had always had plenary power over all the affairs of Indians” (340-341). This idea that Native Americans were basically property of the government was originally just created so that the U.S. could gain some land that was unavailable to them without this new ruling. The U.S. seemed to do this a lot; they just created new rules or amendments if the Native Americans were in the way of their goals. And with this new rule, it was easier for the U.S. to gain more power and create more rules, thus backing the Native Americans into a tiny corner where they had very little freedom in terms of how exactly they wanted to live.
My question is, why do you think so many Native Americans enrolled in the U.S. army?
To answer Rachel's question, I think that the main reason that Native Americans joined the army was because of the mandatory draft for citizens. Other than being required to, Page offers another explanation, that Native Americans could become "civilized" by joining the army and fighting in the war. Individuals, as well as whole tribes could be deemed "civilized" if they served in the army. On page 347 Page mentions "the Five Civilized tribes". I was wondering if these tribes were considered civilized before they entered the U.S. army, or if they were only deemed civilized after fighting in the war. While it seems confusing that the Indians would fight in support of their oppressors, it is understandable that some would see being called civilized as their acceptance into white society. While this might not be the best option, it offered protection for those Native Americans who did join the army.
On another note, I thought that the sort of backlash addressed in the last section was very interesting. The main question that the section brought up for me was why now? After so much time attempting to stamp out the Native Americans it seems odd that Americans would have a sudden change of heart about destroying their lives and culture. Did anyone else have this reaction? Any thoughts on the backlash?
The Progressive Era was a time period with lots and lots going on for the Native Americans. Personally I found it hard to keep up with Jake Page as he described in detail different legislative issues surrounding the Indians and simultaneously connected dots and experiences amongst tribes (he didn't really do a good job/ lost the reader) I would have preferred if he added more primary documents describing the unity of different tribes, like Daklugie's statements.
But I did leave this reading with some new knowledge, a general idea of what was going on. From what I understood the United States, because of the World Wars, began to expand their horizons through power and not land. You would think this was a good thing for the Indians but the states began taking control over their issues with them. What resulted was these mass amounts of court cases, ones that white Americans rarely lost. The Indians would have to relocate or loose part of their land, it was almost as if white Americans were not placing a face to the displacement of Native Americans. During this time period they were treated more like cattle and less like human then ever before, educational programs (although they were horrifying) ceased to exist.
Since white Americans were so cruel I kind of want to get in their head or understand the times. How many certified or self identifying Indians were there? Did whites believe a group so small did not matter? (these aren't my only questions)
I also found this reading as a perfect exhibition of institutionalized racism. These white Americans in high places all over the Legislative Branch, even in the Supreme Court, were dictating lives of a minority without any knowledge of their culture and struggles. Horrible and still exist today.
My real question for you all though is something that I thought of while reading Dalkugie's writing about his hatred for the White Eyes yet appreciation for houses and cleanliness. When does one stop being a Native American/Indian (mixed race or not)?
I thought it was horrible that the new American settlers treated the Indians like a nuisance, a problem that they were getting rid of by way of their legal and political system. The fact that it was so easy for the whites to simply relocate the Indians, especially when it came to the water rights, something that they had led the Indians to believe that they would be able to receive, and then used to manipulate them and force them to leave. I also thought it was interesting how Jake Page mentioned, as the title of the chapter and later in the reading, that this time in which the Indians were facing so many obstacles, is the time we look back on in our American history as "the progressive era." The progressive era has been thought of as the time when America was beginning to grow as a nation, but we forget that this was also the time that many Native American cultures were dying out.
At the beginning of the chapter Page says that "even the identity of American Indians is still governed to an extent by the feds." Why do you think this still is?
I didn't really understand what happened in the water rights section, how exactly was water unavailable? My impression was that Indians were given a specific plot of land for a reservation but it didn't come with a water source or irrigation, but it wasn't clear.
This reading made me wonder what the first introduction of federal law was like for natives, and especially around the time when the supreme court was coming up with laws specifically targeted at Indians.
I guess my question is regarding the water source.
Again, I hear more about the US government transcending American laws. “if a tribe wanted at some point to exercise its Winter Doctrine water rights, and the whites in the surround exercised sufficient political pull over their congressional representatives, Congress could solve the problem simply by declaring that the Indians would have to move to a new reservation.” Without any judicial cheeks even getting a breeze of political wind, the government just moves the “problem” to a different reservation, just a complete win-lose situation. So many Indians attempting to compromise with the whites by adopting their culture, and still the US chooses to remain stubborn and unwilling to cooperate for one second. It is saddening to see the Indians appearing to give up hope for their own culture, even their leader, Geronimo insisting some of his fellow Indians to “go to school and to learn the ways of the White Eyes, the better to avoid being tricked by them.” Ever since conforming to the whites was somewhat successful for the Iroquois, more and more tribes seemed to be following suit (or perhaps, being forced to follow suit). But maybe this force into white culture is necessary. After all, “they have no home, no country, no future, and life [is] hardly worth living.”
Would you rather live rebellious and short lives, but get to keep your cultural traditions; or would you rather live long and healthfully, but be forced to play the white man’s game? I honestly have no clue which one I’d choose.
To answer Steve's question (Steve always has awesome questions) I kinda would live a long, healthyfull life and "be forced to play the white mans game" because I could look like a good "civilized" Indian on the outside but once I got into my house I'd perform the freakin' sun dance all night long!
ANYWHO! after reading this reading I have a new favorite person to hate: Senator Albert Falls. Did anyone else besides me just really want to punch Mr. Falls in the face every time Jake Page talked about him? Ugh! He's such a selfish pig.
I was happy to see there were some happy moments in this chapter like how in the western part of the US, whites learning about Indian culture was BOOMBING in the 1920's. It made me smile, pretty damn wide.
I guess I’ll go back and answer Abby’s question. I think the identity of the Native Americans was still governed by the feds because the feds thought of them their wards, as people that they could “persuade” to do whatever they wanted. They could take away their water and land, and send their kids to horrible schools. And to answer Patrick’s question, the water was unavailable because farmers up the river were starting digging stream things to irrigate their fields, which overtime starting to drain the river, especially downstream for the reservation.
It made me really sad that the Chricahuas were prisoners of war for over 20 years because the Indian Service didn’t want to deal with. I have a kind of random question. Who is Geronimo? He was mentioned in the Chricahuas section.
Hi everyone, internets gone again so sorry about the iPhone typos I'm going to try to get my computer fixed this weekend
okay so I'm going to go way back to Rachel question because I disagree with megs answer. The Indians who chose to become citizens (they weren't forced to be citizens until later) didn't have to fight because of the draft. Originally that was the plan, because I'll citizens have to register for the draft, but there was so much contraversy that it didn't end up happening. On the top if page 147 it says "in effect, oy those citizen Indians who then volunteered were taken into the armed forces." I didnlt really understand how/ why they made this change but I can try to explain what I do understand: there was some other kind if registration that even not citizen Indians had to do involving the army and although they could not ve drafted there was a huge misunderstanding and many Indians refused to sign up because of the fact that some indians (although only citizens) could be drafted.
There wasn't as much in this reading that got me really upset or angry like in some of the others, probably beause the disputes resulted in loss of terratory and not death... But something that did piss me off in this reading was the fact that the the Chricahuas living at fort sill (where they were originally held as prisoners of war) were told that eventually the army would leave and they could develop the fort into their own land/ territory. The army basically just changed their mind and said that they wanted to make it a training facility and essentiLly kicked the Indians out and sent them to live with completely unrelated tribes.
I don't know if this is an extremely inellectual question (sorry Martha) but something thAt caught my attention was the hippies and new agers that page talked about on page 338. He mentioned that they would "hijack" Indian ceremonies... Although thus was very interesting it seemed really out of place in the chapter.. Can anyone relate it for me?
This was not one of the most exciting readings we’ve had. While this was clearly an important time for Indian culture, I didn’t think page did a good job of keeping it interesting. He sums the chapter up pretty well in the beginning when he says something to the effect of, the Indians never knew what to expect with the constant change in leadership in the US and constant change of Native policy. There was certainly a lot of bad things going on during this time, but there were people who still looked out for the Natives. One overall theme I got from this chapter was that it was the first time the Indians lost all control. Even when some groups hunted and had little control over where animals went, they still had control over themselves, and had the power to kill their own food supply. At the beginning of the 1900’s they couldn’t even do that. They were told where to be, what to do, how to act, and what was right and what was wrong. While there had been times when the Americans had made it seem this way before, the Indians then had always had more space to move on too. Now, they were finally backed into a narrow corner, trapped and controlled by the US government.
What was the impact once the US has ceased total control of the Indian population In north America?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: prog times
yeah, so I'm kinda with mac in that this reading wasn't that interesting in that there wasn't much action, and I'm kinda disappointed because I was interested in this section before i started reading. This time period is where I have like a historical gap in my mind of Native American history. The gap was filled but not gloriously.
So yeah, I'm pissed that the whites continued to treat them like a nuisance with laws and such. "Now that we have all their land save for those reservations let's make sure they stay there unless they want to completely give up their savagery." At this point it seemed like it was unnecessary.
I pose a kind of hypothetical question I've been thinking about recently. In previous posts and in the poster conversations I had the idea that The Native Americans were victims of timing and simply that the whites were unfortunately more advanced in technology and had larger numbers. This gives the impression of the Native Americans being oppressed and the white Europeans as greedy invaders, but I've been wondering if the exploitation was inevitable. HERE'S the question: If in an uncharted area of the world you were looking to expand into and had committed to, you were to wander upon a tribe that until you show up has had no contact with the rest of the world, and isn't as advanced as you, what happens? Even if you're super fair to the tribe, as politically correct as possible, are the tribe you discovered still kind of screwed? (by screwed I mean their lives will never be the same as before, to their liking.)
This reading was quite hard to follow through. In the beginning, Page was talking about the water rights, and later on, there are subjects about reservation and Native Americans being forced to be sent to the army. No matter what, the whites never give up thinking that the Native should adapt their culture. But it is never fair for the the Natives American, even the schools in the reservation areas, they do not provide any kind of education in Native Languages. For the prisoners, the enviroment was really bad that 3/4 of the population died during those times. In the pass, the Europeans did not care about people who are weaker than them, and just invate for no reason, which was a brutal act for the Natives.
Why does the skin tone make such a difference in the United States?
I actually didn't enjoy this reading as much as i have the others. There was less about culture or traditions in this reading. I'm also with eric in that I feel like I didn't know too much about this time period, and although i was informed quickly, I am somewhat saddened that I was as invested in this reading.
However, there was one part that made me stop reading and really put myself in perspective. It was only one part, but when Jake Page says that babies had dies from the insect bites. Far worse conditions were being imposed on the Indians, so I guess I'm not so sure why this caught me. I feel like this is yet another thing that nature is doing to the Native Americans, (it might almost be like Karma), but it hit me harder because they are babies. I am constantly (throughout the book) trying to put myself in the place of the Indians, and to think that my child could be killed by an insect is just crazy. It amazes me that the Indians tolerated and survived such awful conditions.
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